Conversation started November 29, 2012
10:47am
Robert
Hey Mark,
I have heard through the grapevine that you consider yourself an atheist. Is this true? I'm asking because I consider myself to be an atheist, however reluctant.
You know, religion (or lack thereof) interests me. It represents my academic field of study. Anyway, I think there are many non-believers who are hesitant to admit it publicly. So, when I find one who will, it interest me.
Bob
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December 2, 2012
11:14am
Mark VanSumeren
Hey Bobbo,
sorry it took so long to get back to you. Yes I too, somewhat reluctantly consider myself an atheist. Though I find the opposite of what most people assume an atheist's approach to life as being somewhat nihilistic. I find life much more precious considering the fact that this is all we have. I too, like you, was brought up in a Christian home, but it wasn't until I sought out the truth through education that I came to lean towards atheism, simply since I find no metaphysical explanation that fundamentally coincides with our understanding of cosmic and biological origins. I feel intellectually dishonest if I try to make myself "believe." It's not that I simply just don't want to to believe. It's just that I can't logically justify it. I would in fact prefer it if there were supernatural elements to existence and that there was a God and afterlife. I just can't see how there could be from an objective point of view.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert
Well said, I can relate to everything you said. You know, I drank too much, so when I finally had enough I went to rehab, and there encountered AA for the first time. I knew when I went to rehab I would have to deal with AA and the thing that concerned me was the theistic nature of the program. But, I did what I thought I had to do and I've been sober for some months.
Now I'm in the program and I am beginning to return to myself. I'm not feeling as though my sobriety is threatened, but I feel dirty somehow, intellectually. I almost can't stomach some meetings because they are all so "spiritually" based. You know, I study religion, and based on my methodology I see no difference between AA and any other religion. I stay in the program because, statistically, it works. But I'm not terribly satisfied with it. It sucks that there is no alternative for people who aren't religious.
What, atheist people have no hope of sobriety?
I am somewhat mistrustful of believers, because they aren't rational. In our society we're taught to be pluralistic and open-minded, but its hard to be open-minded when people believe ridiculous things. We're supposed to say, "Oh, you believe that people can be born of virgins, and rise from the dead? Wonderful, good for you! To each his own." It seems absurd to me.
Anyway, I think it was easier being a sheep. I can't go back though. How can we unknow what we have come to know? We can't. I agree with your assessment regarding nihilism. This is not a nihilistic path. Its a wonderful, exciting path that required intellectual bravery.
This country is becoming more atheistic. The grip of the fundamentalist evangelicals seems to be tightening only because they are likely in their last days. People are waking up, or this is my hope.
Anyway, I hope you are well. I know you have struggled with addictions, as have I. Maybe, like me, you too have found problems with the theism of AA. Keep trying to find a solution that works for you. As of yet, I have no easy answer to this dilemma; the desire to avoid self-destruction because of addiction vs. my refusal to pray for a solution. Good luck to all of us!
Yours,
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 4, 2012
4:04pm
Mark VanSumeren
I have the same issue in AA. It can almost be discouraging in a sense. The program is so adamant about a spiritual force being the ONLY thing that can keep us from drinking. People in AA seem to always give credit to their higher power for their everyday life achievements and sobriety. When in reality it's themselves doing all the footwork. A belief in a God may be the driving force behind their decisions. Regardless, we are still the ones taking action. I find it hard to stomach as well. I find myself thinking "No, it was YOU that kept you sober today, You're the one who made the decision not to drink, regardless of the reason behind that decision, YOU still made the decision. Don't give all the credit to God."
As far as being able to trust believers, it seems not-so-much that they are necessarily irrational (though they are) but rather, they lazily take their beliefs for granted, never questioning them. Lacking depth in their convictions but not realizing it. This I find very astounding. How can anyone not seriously consider the tenants of their faith? It's the most important question a human can ponder. Yet it's rare to find someone who thinks on such a lofty level concerning this subject. They're belief is irrational, but they don't seem to care, know why or how. They don't think about it enough for it to even occur to them that maybe something is amiss. They're comfortable in their self-serving belief that their soul is accounted for, they may display altruistic behavior, but it just boils down to their fear of Gods judgment.
It's hard to connect with people on a level that's satisfying on my end. It's easy to blend in with the sheeple and relate on their level. But most people are satisfied with this superficial level of functioning; Go to work, make money, buy a flat screen, get married, go to church, start a family, find a hobby, read the bible, home school your kids, pray every morning, etc,. All that stuff is good and it's what life is made up of but not what defines us as so many people believe.
Even though AA is a very religious foundation but they claim to be only spiritual in nature. When the issue is pressed, and especially expressed in the Big Book, there's this idea that the only way to stay sober is through God. Why then do people who have a heartfelt faith in God still fail? Because it ultimately comes down to the individuals choice, God or no God.
I can't say what is best for anyone or even myself for that matter, all I know is that AA has a good track record, I will take as much from it as I can. I do know that I won't drink today, and I find comfort in that. I also know the likelihood of my mind rationalizing a drink for me is pretty farfetched. I'm just done with it.
I guess we are both kind of forced to forge our own path through the program. I see no way for an atheist to complete the steps with the 'God of our understanding' being fictitious. I've asked around a little and it seems the textbook answer to give is “read the chapter to the agnostic.” I have, several times. I just find people committing intellectual suicide for a placebo effect. My sobriety is personal and of my own making. We are doing the work, so I think we should be proud of ourselves Bobby. Most people have a God, we don't. We are doing this on our own (even though the believers are too), we're just aware that it's US.
Marky Mark
Robert
Hey Mark,
I have heard through the grapevine that you consider yourself an atheist. Is this true? I'm asking because I consider myself to be an atheist, however reluctant.
You know, religion (or lack thereof) interests me. It represents my academic field of study. Anyway, I think there are many non-believers who are hesitant to admit it publicly. So, when I find one who will, it interest me.
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 2, 2012
11:14am
Mark VanSumeren
Hey Bobbo,
sorry it took so long to get back to you. Yes I too, somewhat reluctantly consider myself an atheist. Though I find the opposite of what most people assume an atheist's approach to life as being somewhat nihilistic. I find life much more precious considering the fact that this is all we have. I too, like you, was brought up in a Christian home, but it wasn't until I sought out the truth through education that I came to lean towards atheism, simply since I find no metaphysical explanation that fundamentally coincides with our understanding of cosmic and biological origins. I feel intellectually dishonest if I try to make myself "believe." It's not that I simply just don't want to to believe. It's just that I can't logically justify it. I would in fact prefer it if there were supernatural elements to existence and that there was a God and afterlife. I just can't see how there could be from an objective point of view.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert
Well said, I can relate to everything you said. You know, I drank too much, so when I finally had enough I went to rehab, and there encountered AA for the first time. I knew when I went to rehab I would have to deal with AA and the thing that concerned me was the theistic nature of the program. But, I did what I thought I had to do and I've been sober for some months.
Now I'm in the program and I am beginning to return to myself. I'm not feeling as though my sobriety is threatened, but I feel dirty somehow, intellectually. I almost can't stomach some meetings because they are all so "spiritually" based. You know, I study religion, and based on my methodology I see no difference between AA and any other religion. I stay in the program because, statistically, it works. But I'm not terribly satisfied with it. It sucks that there is no alternative for people who aren't religious.
What, atheist people have no hope of sobriety?
I am somewhat mistrustful of believers, because they aren't rational. In our society we're taught to be pluralistic and open-minded, but its hard to be open-minded when people believe ridiculous things. We're supposed to say, "Oh, you believe that people can be born of virgins, and rise from the dead? Wonderful, good for you! To each his own." It seems absurd to me.
Anyway, I think it was easier being a sheep. I can't go back though. How can we unknow what we have come to know? We can't. I agree with your assessment regarding nihilism. This is not a nihilistic path. Its a wonderful, exciting path that required intellectual bravery.
This country is becoming more atheistic. The grip of the fundamentalist evangelicals seems to be tightening only because they are likely in their last days. People are waking up, or this is my hope.
Anyway, I hope you are well. I know you have struggled with addictions, as have I. Maybe, like me, you too have found problems with the theism of AA. Keep trying to find a solution that works for you. As of yet, I have no easy answer to this dilemma; the desire to avoid self-destruction because of addiction vs. my refusal to pray for a solution. Good luck to all of us!
Yours,
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 4, 2012
4:04pm
Mark VanSumeren
I have the same issue in AA. It can almost be discouraging in a sense. The program is so adamant about a spiritual force being the ONLY thing that can keep us from drinking. People in AA seem to always give credit to their higher power for their everyday life achievements and sobriety. When in reality it's themselves doing all the footwork. A belief in a God may be the driving force behind their decisions. Regardless, we are still the ones taking action. I find it hard to stomach as well. I find myself thinking "No, it was YOU that kept you sober today, You're the one who made the decision not to drink, regardless of the reason behind that decision, YOU still made the decision. Don't give all the credit to God."
I know your question was rhetorical,
but of course we have a chance at sobriety. I personally enjoy it for
the first time, ever. I had my run with alcohol. I've got 50 days
sober now. Looking back, I find myself kinda baffled at the fact that
I was so enslaved by alcohol. I feel as if a new chapter has been
opened. I find it easy to nonchalantly turn down alcohol, simply
because I know what it does to me, and I genuinely don't want it.
It's not fun anymore and never will be, Plus my mind is so much
sharper and I take pride in that, I'm starting to rediscover myself,
and I actually like who I am, and so does everyone else. It's not
easy to forget the pain an alcoholic life brought me, for that I am
grateful.
As far as being able to trust believers, it seems not-so-much that they are necessarily irrational (though they are) but rather, they lazily take their beliefs for granted, never questioning them. Lacking depth in their convictions but not realizing it. This I find very astounding. How can anyone not seriously consider the tenants of their faith? It's the most important question a human can ponder. Yet it's rare to find someone who thinks on such a lofty level concerning this subject. They're belief is irrational, but they don't seem to care, know why or how. They don't think about it enough for it to even occur to them that maybe something is amiss. They're comfortable in their self-serving belief that their soul is accounted for, they may display altruistic behavior, but it just boils down to their fear of Gods judgment.
It's hard to connect with people on a level that's satisfying on my end. It's easy to blend in with the sheeple and relate on their level. But most people are satisfied with this superficial level of functioning; Go to work, make money, buy a flat screen, get married, go to church, start a family, find a hobby, read the bible, home school your kids, pray every morning, etc,. All that stuff is good and it's what life is made up of but not what defines us as so many people believe.
Even though AA is a very religious foundation but they claim to be only spiritual in nature. When the issue is pressed, and especially expressed in the Big Book, there's this idea that the only way to stay sober is through God. Why then do people who have a heartfelt faith in God still fail? Because it ultimately comes down to the individuals choice, God or no God.
I can't say what is best for anyone or even myself for that matter, all I know is that AA has a good track record, I will take as much from it as I can. I do know that I won't drink today, and I find comfort in that. I also know the likelihood of my mind rationalizing a drink for me is pretty farfetched. I'm just done with it.
I guess we are both kind of forced to forge our own path through the program. I see no way for an atheist to complete the steps with the 'God of our understanding' being fictitious. I've asked around a little and it seems the textbook answer to give is “read the chapter to the agnostic.” I have, several times. I just find people committing intellectual suicide for a placebo effect. My sobriety is personal and of my own making. We are doing the work, so I think we should be proud of ourselves Bobby. Most people have a God, we don't. We are doing this on our own (even though the believers are too), we're just aware that it's US.
Marky Mark
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